In this episode, (Part 2 of 2), Neil and Jason talk to the Oscar-winning Production Sound Mixer Simon Hayes about the work-ethic he learned from filming with his father, Production Sound Mixer John Hayes; other Production Sound Mixers that have inspired him; the importance of a life lived outside of the film business, to both your health and your finances; and his close and long-standing friendship with the film director, Guy Ritchie.
And stay tuned to hear how Neil throws caution to the wind and offers to grapple with Simon in the dojo, to decide who between them should mix the next James Bond Film…
(Left to right: Simon Hayes, Dr. Neil Hillman and Jason Nicholas)
About the presenters:
You can find more about Simon and his work here: https://www.simonhayes.com
Details about Neil and Jason’s work as dialogue editors and mixers and how to contact them is here: https://www.theaudiosuite.com
Details of Neil’s 1-to-1 and Coaching Programmes for ambitious media professionals are available at:
https://www.drneilhillman.com and https://soundproducer.com.au/coaching and www.soundformovingpictures.com
Technical notes:
Written, produced and presented by Jason Nicholas and Dr Neil Hillman – IMDb
Recorded using the Squadcast remote recording system Programme edited by Jason Nicholas
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Transcript:
Neil Hillman
You’re listening to part two of the Apple and Biscuit Show podcast with special guest Simon Hayes. I’m Dr Neil Hillman…
Jason Nicholas
And I’m Jason Nicholas.
Neil Hillman
Welcome back to our two -part episode with the Oscar -winning production sound mixer, Simon Hayes. In part one, Simon gave us an in -depth look into his philosophy and approach to modern location recording techniques, the importance of a fully digital signal chain, and the understanding he establishes at the beginning of each project with his directors. Simon also shared with us the very different considerations he applies to recording and mixing musicals such as Les Miserables, Cats and Wicked, action films such as James Bond’s No Time to Die, X -Men First Class and Guardians of the Galaxy, and the refreshing nature of shooting low-budget, single-camera productions epitomized by the spirit of his early work on Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking Barrels. In this episode, Simon talks about the work ethic he learned from filming with his father, production sound mixer John Hayes, other production sound mixers that have inspired him, and the importance of a life lived outside of the film business to both your health and your finances.
Jason Nicholas
And stay tuned to hear how Neil offers to grapple with Simon and the dojo to decide who between them should mix the next James Bond film. But first Neil asked Simon about his close and long-standing friendship with the film director Guy Ritchie.
Neil Hillman
Your relationship with the director of Lockstock, Guy Ritchie goes back some way, doesn’t it? Am I right in thinking that the 1995 short, The Hard Case was the first time that you actually worked together?
Simon Hayes
That’s right. I met Guy when we were both young assistants working on a commercial. And we recognized each other from growing up in West London. We weren’t mates, but we knew each other from the same nightclubs and the same parties. And so, we gravitated towards each other on this commercial set where we were both working as assistants. And We got chatting and he said, “Look, I’ve written this short, I’m directing stuff at the weekend and I’m using the short ends, I’ve got a contact at a production company and I’m going into their fridge and I’m able to use the short ends which are unused pieces of film from the commercials that the production company were working on.” He was getting access to the short ends, and he was going out and shooting bits and pieces, and he’s written this short film called The Hard Case, and he didn’t have a sound mixer. And so, he asked me to come and make that with him over the course of, it was a Friday night, a Saturday night, and then a Sunday afternoon in Soho. And we made a very exciting 10-minute film, which at the time I didn’t realize, and I don’t know if he realized, but it was, if he had the long form version in his mind already or not, I’m not quite sure. But I know that at the end of those three days, when we were saying goodbye to each other, he said, “Listen, this has been fantastic. I’ve got an idea. I think that I’m going to make this into a long-form version. I’m going to write a feature film.” And the hard case was, if you like, what we would now call a sizzler for Lock Stock. And two years later, he’d written Lock, Stock and I got a phone call inviting me to come and make my first feature film.
Neil Hillman
Fabulous. There’s an equally strong passion that you both share though, isn’t there? And that’s for martial arts. How do you think that that has helped and shaped your approach to the job on set?
Simon Hayes
I think first of all, when we talk about martial arts and it’s an interesting subject and I’m really glad you’ve brought it up. The first thing is hierarchy, the British film industry, and in fact the worldwide film industry, but none more so than Britain and the US, we work with a strict hierarchy on the movie set. That came actually after the Second World War because the film industry in the UK was right at the beginnings before, you know, many of the technicians went off to war. and the ones that were lucky enough to return and rest in peace, those that didn’t, but the technicians that were lucky enough to come back to England and resume their careers in the film industry after going off and serving in the army. Actually, the story that I’ve been told is they naturally formed themselves into a militaristic hierarchy. Why? Because it works. Because it became evident to everyone that if there is a hierarchy, then things get done faster and the company is more productive. And so, we in the film industry have always worked with that hierarchy and of course in martial arts, it’s exactly the same thing. There is a hierarchy within a dojo. And so rather than when I started in the film industry not engaging and feeling like the hierarchy was something that I wanted to rebel against, it made me feel very comforted and causative. And I absolutely understood if someone who was above me in the hierarchy told me to do something, I would absolutely go and do it. I wouldn’t question it. And that’s how you create a really fast -paced, productive workplace, especially on a film set. So, the hierarchy really helps with martial arts, but then we get into other more subtle nuances. Martial artists are often aware of marginal gains. Practice makes perfect. My whole ethos to sound recording is looking for marginal gains. If I can get the microphone a little bit closer, I’m going to nick 5%. If I can get the generator moved another 100 yards down the road because I planned with the gaffer correctly where that generator should go, I’m going to steal another 10%. If I can put carpet under the actor’s feet, I’m going to steal another 5%. If I can get the special effects fan turned down from 50 % to 35 % and get it doing the same job. I’ve nicked another 10%. Now, if we put all of that together, suddenly, rather than thinking, oh, the Jenny will be all right. Oh, it’s okay. The boom, what can leave a little bit of safety there? Have him a foot wider than he needs to be. Oh, it’s okay. The footsteps don’t sound bad. Oh, it’s okay. That fan machine will be all right. They can get rid of that with isotope. Suddenly, my sound that I’m delivering to you dialogue editors could be 40 to 50 percent poorer than if I’d have actually concentrated on the marginal gains and try to create excellence in my tracks and it’s the same with martial arts we only get out of a martial art what we put into it and we all concentrate on marginal gains and Trying to make ourselves a little bit better today both physically, mentally, in the way that we practice, in the way that we move forward, just a little bit better today than I was yesterday. And that’s how I try and approach sound. And then we get into my martial art, which is Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is an art which is based on positional hierarchy. And sometimes you can find yourself in very, very bad positions. And I’m talking about having someone holding you down, sat on top of you, and you can’t escape. You can feel very, very panicked, and you can feel very smothered. And the root out of it isn’t to explode and have some carefully to think logically about a step -by -step workflow to get ourselves into a better position. And that’s very much what I do on a film set as well. I’m being comfortable in the uncomfortable, and believe me, production sound can sometimes be very, very uncomfortable. It can feel like everything on the movie set is against you. And it would be very, very easy to just go, well, it’s impossible. I’m just going to write guide track on the clapperboard. And you know, they’re going to have to ADR this, or I can do what I do on a jujitsu mat, which is think, okay, I’m in a really terrible position here. But let’s just think logically about what I can do to apply myself to make this position a little bit better. And suddenly those tracks, rather than me having given up on them, those tracks may be something which you guys can work with because I’ve given you just enough through logic and patience and having a strategy and not panicking under pressure.
Jason Nicholas
So, you own and teach in a dojo. And is that something we could maybe talk for a minute about, how as a professional that makes business sense in some ways to have another type of business that you do aside from your film work and also does that help with mental health in between jobs and this type of thing.
Simon Hayes
I think that the film industry is at a turning point, and I think that a lot of people have struggled, especially since COVID, but also in the last couple of years with the actors’ strikes. And I think that I’ve been incredibly fortunate that I’ve got, if you like, in modern parlance, a side hustle. And before I go into how important that is for my mental health from a martial arts perspective, let me just go back to a commercial that I made with a lovely commercial director called David Hartley in the 90s, where we went to Iceland. And we went to Iceland for a month to make a series of commercials. So, I got very, very friendly with the Icelandic crew. And what I noticed, the difference between Iceland and the UK at that point was that most people, not just film crew, but most people in Iceland had two or three different jobs. they would have one job where they’re working, you know, as a software developer or in a factory or whatever it is during, you know, the nine to five during the week. But then they’d play in a band and be gigging at the weekends. And then potentially, they’d also have a little studio in their back garden and be a sculptor or a painter. And they’d be having, you know, and, and I just thought, wow, this is really positive. Because firstly, they’re not just relying on one career. So not only are they working in their main career, which is their nine to five, but they’re also monetizing a hobby, which is just great, not just from a mental health perspective. But also, they’ve got something where if their main career for any reason suddenly drops off, they’ve got something else that they can rely on. And so, I’ve always extolled the virtues of having that side hustle. And many of the people that I work with in the film industry have that. And what I would say to anyone young coming into this business is keep your options open. Have a look at what you love to do. Now, I love to record sound, but I also love to do martial arts. And so, what I’ve tried to do is, is to build two careers. And what I can tell you is that if you try and just build something that’s an earner, if you try and just monetize something, it will often fail. But if you’re doing something for the love of it and through passion, and you let it organically monetize itself, it will often be successful. And that’s what I thinks happened to me with sound and also martial arts. There’s nothing that I’d prefer. And by the way, you know, I could have made a decision at any point to become a martial arts instructor and to leave movie sound and movie sound is tough. I’m away from home. I’m working very, very long hours, but I still absolutely love the feeling of driving to the location and thinking, my God, what am I going to be presented with today? and thinking to myself, I’m part of this regiment of filmmakers and we are going to march across from one trench to the other and those trenches are the film that we’re making and we’re going to find a way together to collaborate and get a result. I think that everyone should be thinking in the film industry now about periods where we’re not going to be working, periods where it’s tough and we didn’t get the gig that we wanted to and thinking about what we could do for our own peace of mind to also have a different way to have some money coming in.
Jason Nicholas
Simon, your dad, John Hayes,is a successful sound recordist and to what extent has he been your example and whoelse in the sound department have you held in high regard as you’ve developed towhere you are now?
Simon Hayes
My dad had such and still does have such an influence on me and my approach to the film industry. And what I can tell you about my dad is work ethic. He prioritized the film industry above everything else. And I mean that in a positive way, because you have to. This is a labour of love. When the phone rings we say yes and that’s what I learned from him. One of my earliest memories of being his assistant was saying dad you just you know I heard you on the phone then and you just said yes to that how are you going to achieve that and he said listen Simon let me tell you what we have to do is we have to create confidence and allay fear. What I do is I say yes, and I put down the phone and then I spend the next three days or the next week working out how I’m going to make this happen. I never ever waver. I always say yes. And then I work out the strategy. And that’s what I inherited from him. The other thing that was clear from working with my dad is how important it is to create interpersonal relationships on a film set. You can’t be that guy that’s just sitting in a corner not talking to anyone. You’ve got to create relationships. You’ve got to be part of the filmmaking collaborative. I can’t stress that enough to really, to young people coming into sound mixing, especially production sound mixing. Guys, you know, don’t allow yourself to just be seen as a technician that’s not having any input. And I’m not saying give unwelcome input. Be careful about when and how you give input but carry yourself as if you’re one of the heads of department and key collaborators with the director. Don’t shrink into the background and just be seen as a guy that pushes a button. That’s the worst thing that you could do. So that’s what I learned from my dad very, very early on, as to how to technically be a sound mixer, but other sound mixers that have really resonated with me over the years. Okay, so let’s first of all, let’s start who I assisted for. I assisted for a sound mixer called Paul Vigars. Paul did lots of documentaries for the South Bank show and he was like if you like he was the guy that they got in when they had a documentary to make about music. So, for instance, I went with Paul and we were the documentary film crew shooting Sting making an album in his home studio down in Wiltshire. And so, we were there for three weeks. And there was three of us making that, but we were plugging into his desk, hearing him create demos, seeing the way that he worked with his musicians, having lunch with them, you know, just sort of ten of us around the table with his wife Trudy having cooked for us and sitting down. And, you know, so it was an invaluable time of learning how to integrate musical production with film production sound. And that was one of the huge influences I had. It really taught me so much that I’ve carried across into my career which as you know focuses on musicals. I prioritise musicals they’re what I love to do most. I love all genres, and I love challenges but if I’m faced with a musical I get a crew of you know 10 people, I get far more creative responsibility and I get far more respect on the set if you like. I love to do musicals and that DNA I learnt from Paul Vigars. I also worked with another great mixer who taught me an awful lot called Ian Voight who I should name check and then there was another sound mixer called Simon Hayter. Simon showed me so much. He really taught me about camera perspective. He really taught me about how to work with boom microphones and how to create audio continuity, which is something we don’t talk about enough. Now, I know I already touched on how I would record a bond movie. What I’ve learned on movies like that is my strategy is really simple. Close cuts with close. Okay. I know what you guys need on that type of movie. I know that it doesn’t matter to you whether that dialogue is recorded on a lav or a boom, as long as they’re both close. Close cuts with close. But on a costume drama, that’s not the strategy I’m going to use. I’m going to use the Simon Hater strategy, which is I want to create an acoustic continuity where the shot sounds like the shot, the close sounds close, the mid sounds mid and the wide sounds wide. And I’m gonna let the microphones breathe a little. Sometimes on some movies, it may be that I have a strategy which isn’t across the whole movie, which is for a scene where I say right on this scene, close cuts with close. But on the next scene we’re gonna do, we’re actually gonna go back and create more of an acoustic continuity and put some width around the microphones. And the skill of being a production sound mixer is knowing how to apply these different strategies and in what order. But what I learned from Simon Hater was how to let microphones breathe and how to create boom tracks that cut together without jarring the audience when the boom moved super close from a super wide. We would always massage it so that when you guys started cutting the tracks together and especially remembering that that was a time before when digital reverb was in its infancy and people didn’t really want to use it unless they had to. I know now that there’s roots out of it for you guys where you will make a boom that’s sounding a little bit too close, sound a little bit wider with digital reverb. But Still, again, I go back to what I say, which is, “The more I can do for you on the set and the less you have to use those plug -ins, the better, the more subtle sort of depth to touch that you can have with them, the better it’s going to be for the final soundtrack.” Paul Vigars Simon Hayter and Ian Voight taught me an awful lot. Then we go on to my American colleagues, I was very, very fortunate that one of my first boom operators called David Sutton had boom operated for Chris Newman who was at that point, the most the busiest production sound mixer in the world. And David had spent his formative years going around the world with Chris and I picked David up at the end of his career when he decided he didn’t want to travel anymore. I was a 21 -year -old commercials mixer, and I decided that I needed to have a really, really experienced boom operator who was going to get taken seriously. And David was probably 50, 55 years old at that point, and everyone knew he was a top boom operator. And so, although I never met Chris Newman, what I was able to do as a 21 -year -old commercials boom operator was say to David, “How would Chris record this? What would he do?” And so, if you like, I was trained in the Chris Newman method of sound mixing. And just to put it in perspective, I think Chris Newman probably worked on 90 plus movies. He started in the mid-1960s. And one of his first very big films was The Godfather. He was well known for his ability without radio mics to get usable production sound on the streets of New York, which is a feat in itself. And then he worked all the way through. I think he’s now teaching at NYC Film School, but he worked all the way through to the 2000s, where he was multi-tracking using radio mics. One of the things that I’ve mentioned in this podcast so many times is it’s all about signal to noise. That’s a direct Chris Newman quote. And when I heard Chris Newman say that, When I read an interview where he’d said that I was disappointed. I thought to myself He’s really, really oversimplifying and minimising the input that a production sound mixer has on a film and I’m not sure I like it But the more I thought about it and the further I’ve got into my career and the more experienced, I’ve become of different strategies for filmmaking, different directors in the way that they work, different ways of using cameras. The more I’ve realised, as you can tell from this podcast, that I’ve realised it all comes, he was absolutely bang on, it all comes back down. To those words, it’s all about signal to noise. Who else? Mark Ulano, a collaborator on every single one of Quentin Tarantino’s movies. I started reading about Mark before the internet, and at that point production sound mixers were incredibly guarded about the work that they did and about how they would achieve results. And what we youngsters started doing was the only, we would grab hold of any books that we can. And one of the things that was awesome was every year, there was a manual that came out, a catalogue for a hire company called Location Sound Corporation, LSC in LA, and every year, not only would it have a price list, but there would just be little excerpts where Mark Ulano would talk for a page about what he’d done on the specific movie. And what immediately me about Mark Ulano was that he spoke about the creative craft of sound mixing and he centred himself on that rather than the technical side of delivering tracks. And I liked that, and I thought that that was important. And the other thing that really switched me on and made me a big Mark Ulano fan was the fact that he was open about how he did things. He wasn’t guarded, he just put it right out there, which is something that I’ve always done, and I continue to do as I’m sure you’ve noticed on Instagram. I’m not hiding anything. I’m giving everyone all of the information that I possibly can, because I want production sound and film sound generally to grow, to be more respected, to be seen as equal partners in the collaboration that is filmmaking. And to do that, we have to give the young people coming through confidence and to show them a roadmap of how to present themselves as collaborators on those film sets rather than just as technical support, if you like. So, Mark Ulano was always very good at that. And then finally, the another sound mixer from Los Angeles, who got a huge amount of respect for meeting him for the first time was like, for me, it was like meeting a rock star as Jeff Wexler. And the reason why I have so much respect for Jeff Wexler, apart from the multitude of movies that he did throughout his career, is firstly, what he gave back to the sound community. But also, he had what I’ve got, which is he had a lifelong relationship with his boom operator, Don Coufal, who unfortunately has passed away now, but they worked together from the get-go until the end on practically every single movie. They had a complete creative relationship, which is what I’ve got with my two boom operators Arthur and Robin, and what they did was they managed to stay together and they worked as a team. And if Don said, “Listen, this is how I’m going to, this is the best way to boom it,” Jeff would say, “Okay, Don, I trust you. That’s what we get.” And there was just that absolute intrinsic trust that I recognize and that I’ve tried to build with my boom operators and that we’ve done very well with. The other thing that Jeff did extremely well was he used a CMC5 MK41 Schleps on everything. His career was based around using that single one microphone and in fact that is a major reason why I moved on to that MK41 super-cardioid capsule because of how it sounded in Jeff’s films and what Don did with that capsule and they would use it interior and exterior you know Neil they didn’t go on to an 816 you know they used they used a super-cardioid on exterior as wide and it sounded great and I know that we can’t do that with wind machines on superhero movies now, but on those types of movies shooting one camera You could do that and those soundtracks sound all the better for it. So yeah, those are my kind of sound mixing heroes.
Neil Hillman
Brilliant. Okay. We’re getting to sort of the end here, but I just want to ask a question about longevity. Again, it’s a long question before I get to the bit and I’m gonna ask you but the legendary British film sound recordist John Mitchell, he had an incredibly long career spanning more than 50 years from 1934 to 1998. He worked on 170 feature films such as Alfred Hitchcock’s The 39 Steps, one of my dad’s favourite films as it happens, and also he was responsible for four James Bond films: You Only Live Twice, the film that made me want to work in the film industry when I was a seven-year old. Diamonds Are Forever, for which John received an Academy Award nomination, on Her Majesty’s Secret Service, the most heartbreaking end to any Bond film, and Live and Let Die, which is the best Bond theme ever, in my opinion. Here’s the question. Do you think that it’s possible, or even desirable, given how our working conditions are now so challenging, to have a career of a length like John’s?
Simon Hayes
I do. And I think that there’s a number of people that have almost managed to do that. I think Chris Newman’s one of them. I think Mark Ulano is another one who’s still working. I think Jeff Wexler is another one. And I’m trying to reach those heady heights. I think that I’m on about movie number 66 now. And I only feel like I’m midway through my career. I’ve got plenty, plenty more to give. I’m still full of passion. I’m still waking up every day, raring to get to work, to put those cans on and to start to think about how I’m going to solve problems and how I’m going to support my director and how I’m going to capture these original performances. What I potentially do that allows me to do that is I keep focused and I don’t look behind. I try and look forward. I try and think about what I can do to make myself a better mixer every day. At the end of every movie, I sit down and I’m quite hard on myself. I think about what mistakes I made, what I could have done better, how I could change a workflow to create better tracks. I didn’t move on to cable list microphones until I knew that it was going to be a step forward for you guys in post. I didn’t do that when it would make things a bit easier for the boom ops but I knew that I’d be losing 10 % because I’d be putting that boom into an analogue radio with frequency response of 60 Hz to 14 kHz rather than 20 Hz to 20 kHz. I didn’t do it then because I knew it would be a step backwards. I’m all about taking steps forwards. And when there is a legitimate step forward to be had, I’ll take it, and I’ll take it by the horns. But what I’m trying to do is to just make sure that every film that I make is better than the last sonically. And what I’m trying to do is to make sure that I am the production sound mixer that the director wants me to be. And that’s something that is really, really important. I need to be the correct production sound mixer for the director and the project. And that means throwing away my own strategies, if you like, and rebuilding from the ground up, a unique strategy based on what the director’s shooting style is and what the story is and how we’re going to shoot it. And being able to put on, if you like, that different costume for that movie, that different acoustic costume for that movie is really, really important, rather than trying to force that movie into my costume. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. And it sounds pretty exciting as well because it’s keeping it fresh. Yeah, exactly. And there are so many different ways to make a film now. We’ve got so many diverse different methodologies of filmmaking. And what I think a great production sound mixer can do is be like a chameleon and be the correct mixer for that narrative.
Neil Hillman
Okay, finally, we have, well, we’ve whittled down six quickfire questions from people who’ve sent in questions for you. So maybe you could tell us in sort of rapid fire, maybe in one sentence if you can. I’ll go first. Your favourite country to film in?
Simon Hayes
Well, firstly, the UK, without doubt. Why? Because we’ve got the best technicians in the world. We’ve got the technical expertise. We’ve got the infrastructure, but I absolutely love working in Los Angeles. I have a deep affinity with Los Angeles. I grew up riding a BMX bike when I was a kid. And that is very much a kind of LA centric culture that we try to recreate on our BMX bikes in London. And whenever I’ve gone to LA, I felt incredibly at home. And so yeah, I love working in LA. But here’s the thing, remember, we’ll go back to what my father taught me. And that is we say yes. I say yes to every opportunity that comes my way, that’s what I’ve been taught to do. And one of the reasons I do that is because I want to travel the world. Now I spend so much time on a film set, I’m not going to have an opportunity to travel the world from a leisure perspective. And so what I’m trying to do is to travel the world with films, which I’m, you know, I’m pretty successful at. And so rather than think about what’s my favourite country to shoot in, what I always think about is there somewhere new I can see and go and make a film in? And so the answer to any travel question is always yes.
Jason Nicholas
And we’ve kind of touched on this, but perhaps in summary, we’ve discussed another, a number of other things you’re involved in, and given that any of these things could be a career in their own right, what brings you back to the film set?
Simon Hayes
These magical performances. It’s really simple. What some people lose sight of, but we all as filmmakers need to remember, is that we’re all here for one primary reason, and that’s to support these magical performances that our cast give us. And it doesn’t matter whether we’re talking about the lighting, the costumes, the makeup, the set design, the camera move, or the production sound recording, we are there to support those performances. And just sitting on a film set, being part of that machine that is capturing those magical performances. And, you know, being party to seeing the actors work out their relationships and their emotions and seeing the minute differences between take number two to take number three and how they are, you know, making every single detail better. It’s still, it’s still just, I just feel incredibly inspired by being there on a film set.
Neil Hillman
This is a quick one, boom or lav?
Simon Hayes
Both, both. And there’s no such thing as a quick one with me, guys. You should know that. Let me tell you why. Because again, going back to what we’ve been talking about a lot today, which is what you guys are doing in post and also what brand of microphone is better and my answer to that. Let’s also talk about auto -aligning booms and laughs, which is something that I know you guys are doing incredibly successfully now. And I’m not against that. If it sounds good, let’s do it. And so when you say boom or lav, I’m saying both. Because if I don’t give you both, then you haven’t got the ability to auto-align if you want to. So I’ve taken a choice away from you. That’s not my job. My job is to give you guys choices. And I’m not saying that auto-aligning is always the way, is always the best strategy, but what I am saying is you guys should have the ability to do it if you want to do it. So boom or lav both.
Jason Nicholas
And I think this question is kind of from the perspective of maybe something you would like to be able to do but can’t yet, but what would you hope for the future of both production sound technology and the craft of it?
Simon Hayes
I think we should all keep an eye on what’s going on with AI and I think that rather than seeing AI as a negative, I don’t think that we’re going to be replacing original performances with AI. I think that it would be massively negative. I think directors and film studios know that. I think actors definitely know that. What I think is going to happen with AI, I think, and it’s already happening is your plugins are going to get more powerful. And what I think, rather than being very down in the dumps, “Oh, AI, none of us are going to be in a job in five years’ time because AI is going to take over,” I actually think that AI is going to save original performances. I actually think that as long as I keep giving you signal to noise, you’re going to be able to dig into those original performances and remove more background noise and save more original performances. And so what would I hope for the future of production sound technology? I think that we use AI creatively and we use it to help us protect those original performances.
Neil Hillman
What difference did winning an Oscar make to the way that you’re treated by production?
Simon Hayes
Trust. I think that winning an Oscar instantly made producers and directors that don’t know me have a trust in me. There’s something that goes along with that kind of award that says we can hand the reins over for the production sound to this guy and we’re going to be okay. He’s going to deliver. And so I don’t have to persuade anyone that they’re in safe hands. They already know they’re in safe hands.
Jason Nicholas
And this is sort of a clickbait kind of question, but given that you’re presented with two dozen unknown situations to resolve every day on set, what are the three essential items that you would always make sure to have in your kit? (And this is besides gaffer tape because that’s a given.)
Simon Hayes
Well, the first thing is, I need to have an argument with you, Jason, over this two dozen. I’m making two dozen creative decisions every three minutes, okay? But that aside, I can’t have three essential items in my kit. But what I can tell you is that these are an absolute given. I need two boom operators. I need monitors. I’m not mixing looking at a needle or some block bars telling me what level. I’m using my ears and I’m using my eyes and I’m mixing to what the camera is seeing. So I need picture monitors because I need to trust my ears and I need to mix according to what the picture is. What I’m doing as a sound mixer isn’t divorced from the filmmaking process. I’m not just trying to make every take sound as good as it can. I’m trying to make every take sound like the picture that’s in front of me. So I need to achieve that. I need two boom operators. I need a monitor with each camera picture. I need a set of headphones, obviously. And I need 12 radio mics because if you guys want to auto align, who am I to stop you?
Neil Hillman
Simon, thank you so much for joining us today. With you being so much in demand. It’s great that you’re able to find the time for this. Just before we go, are you able to tell us what your next project will be?
Simon Hayes
I can’t tell you exactly what the project is, but what I can tell you is that I’m collaborating again with my dear friend Guy Ritchie. He’s having me and my team back. We’re going to go and make another exciting movie with him. And you know what? Every so often, I come back and work with Guy and it’s just like a homecoming party. It’s someone that I feel very, very comfortable with. It’s like being back with family.
Jason Nicholas
Will there be any shouting in the film?
Simon Hayes
There could very well be, but there could also be some whispering, and I’ll tell you what, I need to be ready for both.
Neil Hillman
Well, hopefully you’ll be able to come back later in the season, tell us how that all went, and I wonder if you could persuade Guy to come alongside you, and we can chat a little bit more. Now, there’s just one other thing, and I’m going to just put this out there, I kind of tackled it a little bit earlier. Maybe if you get another James Bond offer, you and I might go head-to-head in the dojo, on the mat, and we’ll see which one of our two styles wins and who gets the gig.
Simon Hayes
Neil, I think if we’re gonna go head to head, it shouldn’t be in a closed dojo. I think we need to get some cameras on it and we need to go into the octagon and make this thing public.
[Laughter]Neil Hillman
Fantastic. Simon’s website and IMDB page are on today’s show notes page, along with contact details for Jason and I as experienced and enthusiastic dialogue editors for hire. My work as a sound producer overseeing films from pre -production right through to post-production, as well as the live coaching sessions that we run and that we like to think are relevant and useful for all craft creatives such as directors and picture editors and not just sound professionals.
Jason Nicholas
It’s our goal with our podcast to educate listeners from all backgrounds about the underappreciated, wider roles, sound plays in life, as well as in the film and television industry, and to also develop a sound language and style of dialogue that filmmakers can use to more easily communicate with each other about sound for moving pictures. If you like what you’ve heard today, please be sure to subscribe to the podcast and leave comments about what would be helpful to you and your work and who you’d like to hear from on the show. And as always, thanks for listening.
Announcer Rosie
The Apple and Biscuit Show is written, produced, and presented by Jason Nicholas and Dr. Neil Hillman. It is edited and mixed by Jason Nicholas in our Sydney studio.
