In this episode, Neil and Jason talk to emerging Australian sound designer Andrew Dean about his work, in particular the award-winning films ‘Mud Crab’ (written and directed by David Robinson-Smith), ‘Gorgo’ (directed by Veniamin Gialouris) and the forthcoming feature film ‘Salt Along the Tongue’, (directed by Parish Malfitano), that Andrew sound designed and mixed.
Andrew describes his journey from working in a Bathurst multi-screen cinema, then studying for a music degree, moving from recording studios to mixing television shows for SBS, and then studying sound design at the Australian Film, Television and Radio School (AFTRS). Andrew graduated from their Masters programme in 2022 and has subsequently pursued several creative endeavours with AFTRS alumni.
Announcer Rosie
You’re listening to the Apple and Biscuit show with Jason Nicholas and Dr. Neil Hillman.
Neil Hillman
Hello, and a very warm welcome to this edition of the show. I’m Dr. Neil Hillman…
Jason Nicholas
And I’m Jason Nicholas. We’re two seasoned professionals working in the film and television sound industry. The purpose of our podcast is to discuss the many ways sound is used in moving picture productions to entertain, inform, educate and engage audiences.
Neil Hillman
It’s also a great way for us to meet up with colleagues we admire and to join with them in conversation because how they utilize sound in their work, interests, intrigues and inspires us. And in turn, we like to think that we’re quite different in the way that we as a team approach sound and sound design, not least of all, thanks to our backgrounds. Whilst we’re both long -standing and current practitioners who’ve spent years carrying out location sound recording, dialogue editing, and being re -recording mixes. We also have strong academic links to the topic of moving picture sound. Jason with an interest in human psychology, and me with a research background in sound design and its effects on human emotions. And so in this respect, our call to action is that we hope you’ll feel a connection to us after listening to the programme.
Jason Nicholas
Hopefully the content of our podcast and the guests who join us will prove enlightening to anyone with an interest in the medium and the part that sound plays in filmmaking, regardless of their level of experience. Maybe you’re a student, just embarking on your studies, an industry newcomer, or you’re already an experienced professional. Maybe you just love movies. Wherever you join us from, you’re welcome along, and as always, we look forward to learning more than a thing or two from our guests.
Neil Hillman
Today on the show, we’re talking with one of Australia’s most up -and -coming and in -demand sound designers Andrew Dean. Andrew is from Bathurst, where his first job was at the Metro Cinema, a five -screen theatre that clearly whetted his appetite for working in the film industry. He moved to Sydney and attended the Australian Institute of Music and completed a Bachelor of Music degree, majoring in audio production in 2016. This led to work in several Sydney recording studios as an assistant, but then he changed from a career in music recording to one in television sound, with a move to Australian broadcaster SBS, where he became an audio director, working on many SBS productions. Still, he decided he wanted to learn more about narrative filmmaking and in particular audio storytelling. And so in 2022, he deleted a master’s degree in film sound at the Australian film, television and radio school, better known in the industry, as afters. This was certainly a fruitful time for Andrew, as whilst he was there, he supervised the sound for the film Mudcrab, which won the award for Best Sound at the 2023 St Kilda Film Festival. Subsequently, he’s mixed and supervised films such as Reunion, The Replica, We used to own houses and Gorgo, and Jason and I have been privileged to watch his latest feature film salt along the tongue ahead of its imminent theatrical release. Welcome, Andrew. Are you well? And where do we find you today?
Andrew Dean
Thank you. Hi, yes, I’m very well. I’m in sunny Woolamaloo in the middle of Sydney today.
Neil Hillman
Well, we’re eager to talk to you about the sound design of three of your recent films, ones that really captured Jason and my attention. But first, I’m interested to know where this desire for movie sound came from, rather than you continuing your career in music.
Andrew Dean
Yes, I guess that it all began at the Institute of Music when I was studying a degree to actually work in recording studios, recording and mixing music and bands. And I had, Towards the end of the degree, I had to fill a couple of elective classes just to finish, just to graduate. And Beau Chirard, my subject coordinator, insisted that I try this Sound for Screen intro class, and it absolutely blew me away. Michael McLennan taught it, and it just kind of opened my eyes only for only kind of for a couple of months because I would soon graduate and chase the recording studio route for a while but it always kind of it was always kind of it’s always kind of itching me in the back of my mind this kind of adding in the augmenting the narrative of what you see in a picture with sound.
Neil Hillman
So let’s take a deep dive into the sound aesthetic for film number one, and we’ve chosen Mud Crab. Now, this is a film where you first worked with Nathan Turnbull, who you’ve recently completed a full -length feature with, and you were the re -recording mixer on Mud Crab. This is a difficult narrative subject, with the female protagonist, played brilliantly by Lanika Den, wrestling with her conscience over her suppressed culpability in the violent act that she’s witnessed and maybe even passively encouraged. It’s an extraordinary film, not least of all, due to the performance of Lanika as the onlooker and the abettor Jenny, but also by the stunning portrayal of the victim Daniel by Joshua Mehmet, a role that he gained and lost 30 kilos in weight for. It really is an incredibly moving performance. There’s very little dialogue in the film with Jenny’s recollections told by her in voiceover. Andrew, from her attitude towards the victim, Daniel, the audience must surely have doubt over the authenticity of her account and a truthfulness. So was this always planned to be narrated by an unreliable witness,or did the film evolve this way as you were mixing it?
Andrew Dean
It was always part of the plan to have this, to have it be a voiceover, to have it kind of be an internal monologue by Lenica. So the story is that David, Robinson Smith, he was a year above me. He deferred for a year at afters before the sound mix had been done. So he kind of had a year. I kind of came in and picked it up and did it. So I don’t know about that voiceover decision, but it was, he’s a kind of director that his films will be written like a voice, like an internal monologue.
Neil Hillman
I’m really interested in the kind of dialogue that you would have had as the re -recording mixer with David, the director. Obviously, these are conversations that go on in the mixing theatre that the audience don’t get to hear, but they hear the results of. What can you tell us about that?
Andrew Dean
The mixing theatre experience with David was a really fulfilling, interesting time. At the time, it would have been the third short film that I had mixed and the workflow was really, there was no kind of every scene that we would attack scene by scene and there was no kind of this is how we’re doing it. This is how this is how this scene has to sound. David would kind of give me my time to approach it and kind of start moving audio around and maybe pulling some sounds out And then I would play a couple of minutes segment to him and he would either be like, yep, or no, and then we’d, and then I’d, we’d just hit it again. Then I guess how that scene would end up sounding would speak to the following one or two scenes. So it was ever evolving what I think made it easier in the way that the film is in into distinct halves. It made that kind of handling it in chunks, in segments, a whole lot more manageable and approachable.
Jason Nicholas
I find it striking that the music in the film is quite unlike any music that the characters in the film itself are ever likely to listen to. And it really sets the viewer apart in a way that what we hear is several layers of abstraction away from the world of the film yet at the same time we are intimately drawn into the story with a first -person voiceover narration what kind of discussion did you have with the director around the music for the film what was the composer of the music involved in the mix at all and did you have a discussion between the two of them about how you as a mixer could affect the emotions of the viewer.
Andrew Dean
Yeah, the beautiful score was composed by James Mountain, who we had just, we were chatting yesterday and we realized that I’ve mixed now three, in two years, mixed three films that have your score in it, and we have a fourth one coming up in the next month. From what I understand that, score was written before the film was shot. The way that the instruments were recorded was in this such an amazing way that you can kind of hear the breath and there’s just such a, I think that that kind of, I think leaning into that rather than trying to, I think it was a conversation we had where it occurred a few times and I guess historically I would have lent in to maybe trying to clean that up and kind of remove that. But just of the rawness of the picture and of the story, it made sense to kind of leave that stuff in. Like it added this really human flavor to it.
Film excerpt – Mud Crab
Let’s go, come on. What the fuck are you doing, mate? What are you doing here? Having a little party? Yes, sorry there. Where’s our fucking invite? Having a fucking party? Are you fucking…
Jason Nicholas
And you really play with the presence and the absence of sound in particular scenes. When the main character, Daniel, is walking along the line of houses under construction, we hear the ambient sounds of insects, but after he’s attacked on the beach and is running home along the same road, all the ambient sound drops out and we hear only score. What are your thoughts on where and when do you use ambient sound and where it’s better to have score or just silence?
Andrew Dean
Yeah, I was thinking about this earlier, and Mud Crab was the first film that I had mixed where I kind of wasn’t scared to, I would play around with completely removing an aspect of the sound, whether it be all the backgrounds or and just kind of leave flavours is going to really help tell the audience what’s going on with our characters. The decisions to, in a couple of instances where I just kind of decided to leave the audience with the score and no ambient sounds or atmospheres, that was to really kind of just leave the viewer with this incredible music that really speaks to what the character is going through.
Jason Nicholas
Yeah, I think, I mean, just as we’re talking about this, you know, we talk about the unreliable narrator of the film. I think in a sense, the most reliable narrator in the film is the score because that really sets the tragedy of the whole thing. And that’s the most truthful emotional impact that the film has. It’s the music telling that story. And there are several shots in the latter half of the film where we hear very close micing of Daniel brushing his teeth or when he’s eating, especially when he’s eating. And his interior world is also highlighted he’s playing video games and we we just hear the sound bleeding from his headphones and the visual storytelling takes a turn as well in the second half of the film as we go from summer to these muted winter tones did the director intentionally close everything down in response to Daniels world closing in as well?
Andrew Dean
That was that was a really important note from note from David for the second half of the film for those um really enclosed in sounds like in the bathroom brushing of the teeth, sitting on the couch by himself playing video games or even in the fish and chip shop compared to the start of the film where it’s really open and um airy you just kind of are left with the um with the character and the folly of him, which was all Nathan Turnbull who recorded all that foley himself. It was a really important thing that we spent the most time on, I would say, in the mix was kind of really having, especially with those headphones where he’s playing Call of Duty or whatever and he can just hear the clicking of the controller and his breathing and it was just really meant to just kind of give you a sense of how alone he is now and just he’s just there with himself. And also the, and also the kind of when he’s laying in bed, turning over and it’s raining outside and you can just hear the kind of creaks in the bed. That was all really, really planned, purposefully sound design.
Film excerpt – Mud Crab
Coughing…
Jason Nicholas
I’m just, I’m amazingly impressed on how much effort went into a short film with all involved here?
Andrew Dean
Yeah, yeah. I was forever grateful to Adam Daniel, actually, one of the producers of Mud Crab that got me on. I had worked not long before with him on his student film, The Replica, and I’m just about to work on his new film, The Echo Point, but we’re very grateful to be able to work on such an amazing story.
Neil Hillman
The second of the three films we’re both interested in discussing with you is Gorgo. The plot is rather cleverly based on the Greek mythological story of Medusa and the consequences of her rape by Poseidon in the Temple of Athena. But it’s set in the Greece and Australia of, and I’m guessing from the briefest glimpse of a period car, the late 1950s, possibly the early 1960s. But the difficult themes of the presence of a sexual predator, rape, guilt, blame, betrayal and punishment are all encountered by our Medusa as she follows her closest friend Athena to Australia for an arranged marriage. This is at the behest of Athena to a stranger after travelling to a strange land and arriving at a strange, unwelcoming household. Andrew, the dialogue’s all in Greek. How was that to dialogue edit, to mix for pace and emphasis, and of course, for authenticity? I’m assuming you’re not a native Greek speaker.
Andrew Dean
Yeah, that was quite challenging to do the, to handle the dialogue that I didn’t, that I do not know how to speak. Had a lot of help, Venn, the director, amazing director, being Greek himself, and we had a translator on call to figure out if I needed to pull handles out on any little words or consonants that I missed that were incredibly important.
Neil Hillman
It’s that subtlety, isn’t it? It’s that subtlety of a language that we don’t understand, but, you know, a native speaker might understand. When I’m sound designing, I’ll often break down a scene into just four constituent parts, which I call the four sound areas, the narrative, abstract, temporal and spatial. They’re all elements of the soundtrack that I’m building. In Gorgo, I can clearly hear the narrative and temporal elements working together. At its simplest, the dialogue is fast -paced, for instance. But how did you use what I refer to as the abstract sounds of the two countries in the atmosphere tracks? And how did you manage the space around the dialogue to contrast between Medusa and Athena being firstly in Greece and then in Australia?
Andrew Dean
Yeah. Firstly, I think it’s very funny because in my thesis at AFTRS, I’ve referenced your book and you’re writing on that area when talking about Gorgo and the abstract. What I, the most fun and interesting part of sound designing, Gorgho for me, was when Medusa arrives in Australia in the early 60s.
Film excerpt – Gorgo
Andrew Dean
It was finding a way of making everything sound alien to her. Although, you know, albeit everything is, it’s, you know, traffic and walla and radio, kind of radio shows. But how can, how can, and cicadas and kind of insects that maybe, that maybe Medusa had never heard before, but kind of just manipulating all of these things that we would find normal to make it seem like a very unsettling, unnerving new place to her.
Neil Hillman
It’s a very hostile household that she comes into, isn’t it?
Andrew Dean
It is. It is, yeah, incredibly. And the way it was arranged, directed and shot by Venn and Petra Leslie, the cinematographer, it was, you were left at these at times just the first moments that Medusa arrives in the house. She kind of meets Athena and then within moments she’s kind of left to sitting there in the living room by herself and you can only hear these sounds outside which to us like would be just kind of urban suburban, normal atmosphere everyday atmospheres Sydney western Sydney Saturday afternoon; but manipulating these and making them making them sound a little unsettling and off -putting.
Neil Hillman
Well, it creates isolation for her, doesn’t it? I think that’s very well achieved, that isolation as we see her there in that strange household.
Andrew Dean
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. It was not hard for me to kind of figure out immediately what I needed to do because the picture was so clear and the direction from Ben was so clear that I knew kind of my job for those scenes, those empty spaces, not being too heavy -handed with the sound, but just subtly implying that something’s not right.
Film excerpt – Gorgo
Jason Nicholas
There’s a couple of shots in the film where Medusa’s story and her character are revealed almost wholly with sound. The opening of the film starts on black and we hear the outdoor sounds of the olive grove in Greece and her singing, and it’s this open feeling, and then later, on her wedding night, we’re in the bedroom with her and her husband, and we hear her painful experience more than see it. And in both these instances, I think the story is much better revealed by the sound rather than by vision. Was there a discussion with the director around this in particular?
Andrew Dean
Yes, this was something that was, it was something that was the most challenging, maybe at this point in my career, the most challenging thing for me to do in terms of sound design was creating an everyday life in this household, which you couldn’t see in the picture. What’s happening upstairs? The men in the house are doing housework. Where are they located? Where would you be able to hear those from in a theatre space like where would we what would we want the audience to think and where and where the other characters were placed in the household what does that kind of mean to Medusa like where is she trying is she kind of trying to be quiet and sneak around you kind of get that from there at the end of the film where there’s the big you know twist at the end um at the at the at the wedding night and where that creates empathy was really hard, but really cool. We did it.
Neil Hillman
I thought it was really powerful. One of the things that I like to think about if I’m sound designing is putting the audience in two positions. The first one is, “I know how I felt when that happened to me”, or “I know how I would feel if that happened to me”; and it’s sort of asking those questions of the audience, which I think you did so very well in Gorgo.
Andrew Dean
Thank you very much yeah it was whenever we would get stuck we would always ask Venn and I would ask each other what do we want the audience to understand right at this point and then if that and then if that wasn’t the right question for that scene it was what do we want them to feel the twist came brilliantly i didn’t see it coming and i enjoyed it very much that’s really cool i’m glad.
Neil Hillman
Our third choice to discuss with you is your latest sound design and mixing work, Salt Along the Tongue. And the first thing I have to say is, what a complex film this is to get your head around! It’s unfair to draw comparisons, but there are definitely moments reminiscent of The Exorcist and The Witches of Eastwick, with food, demonic voices and vomiting, a recurring theme. Now, if that hasn’t aroused your interest in this present -day horror story, then let me share a little more of the plot with you. A young woman, once again played brilliantly by Lanika Den, becomes possessed by the spirit of her dead mother, as a means of protection against a malevolent manifestation that is summons by food preparation and an internet cookery show. This curse is nothing, if not contemporaneous…
Jason Nicholas
There’s an underlying motif in the film of food, digestion, gestation, lots of fluidy stuff. How did you approach the sound design for all of this and tie it together in the story?
Andrew Dean
What a ride it was! We just wrapped the mix last week on Salt Along the Tongue, Parrish and I. When I read the script, which would have been September last year, it was incredible the amount of detail and the amount of that sound was written every page, every paragraph into the script. It was so important for Parrish, and he thought so much about the role that sound is a character in this film.
Jason Nicholas
There are a couple places in the film where these cycles, and returning, were subtly hinted at; and I’m thinking in particular of the scene in the bowling alley where we clearly hear the ball returning and it almost morphs into this biological sound. And then there are other places where we think we’re hearing one thing, but it’s something else. There’s a very uncomfortable scene where it sounds like we’re hearing one of the girls being abused, but it’s actually her stabbing a knife into the woodwork of a wardrobe. And I think this is one of the mistakes that’s often made, and especially so in horror films, is that the filmmakers assume they have to show the horror on screen when it’s usually better to place the sound in the mind of the viewer and let them fill in the gaps. Was this a desire of the director or something that you had a discussion with him about?
Andrew Dean
Yes, it was, it was a desire to kind of leave this thought with the audience of what could be happening when you hear something and don’t see it. With this film, in particular, my kind of my northern star for it was that Hitchcock quote, it’s not the bang but the anticipation of it. Yeah, that’s really cool. I’m really glad that you said that about the bowling alley, the cycle scene, because that was the intent and that was Parrish really wanted, that that’s when Laneka’s character realizes that this cycle of life and family and motherhood, and to do that with the sound of a bowling ball, returning back down the alley.
Jason Nicholas
Yeah, I think there’s a lot in, I mean, this is in, you know, one of the sort of triumphs of sound design in film is that in retrospect, I can look back, you know, I’ve seen the film, and I can think about it and that. But there’s, again, this underlying thing that’s happening with the sound, that the audience doesn’t realize it’s happening, but you’re doing it to them consciously, but then subconsciously it’s building up and building up and building up through the film. And a good portion of the film is in flashback, or it’s set in some sort of middle spirit world where it’s unclear whether this is taking place in reality or it’s some form of abstraction from it. What kind of considerations did you have mixing the film for these different experiences that the characters were having? Because we sort of have multiple storylines happening at the same time. Is there a different sound space for each of the different characters?
Andrew Dean
There is, that was such clear, incredible direction from Parrish, that the soundscape and the backgrounds and the atmospheres whenever we were in, depending on which characters’ world that we were in, which of the ladies’ world. We were in Carol’s or Mina’s. And it was down to the animals that you hear and the layers of wind. And even when we’re in Yuma’s world, that it needed to be, we needed to have these ocean sounds far away. And it made my job really fun and really easy, kind of knowing where to go, knowing already having a tool, a storytelling tool in the arsenal for each scene in terms of layers of backgrounds really gave me a really gave me a strong start for every sequence.
Jason Nicholas
We talk about the use of sound to tell a story and to get the audience set and understanding of what’s going on but this isn’t a film that ends with a nicely wrapped up, like, oh, this is what happened, and it’s really clear. It ends up very ambiguous and not quite sure what’s happening. Was there a deliberate attempt in some circumstances to not confuse the audience, but leave things more open than, you know, a normal cut and dry telling of the story? There would have been in the writing of the script, like, okay, we’re not going to wrap this up nicely. This is going to be a very abstract, kind of surreal. How much leeway did the director give you with, okay, just make this really bizarre?
Andrew Dean
Yeah, I was given so much freedom to express, to kind of paint what I felt that each scene needed. Of course, there was, for a lot of the film, it was, Parrish had had this exact, this exact kind of structure sound -wise for a lot of it. Mainly in terms of these different world, what characters’ world we were in and how the kind of atmospheric sounds would give us that. It’s when I began to really, really experiment again in the way that I had first done mixing Mud Crab where I in Salt Along the Tongue, I would start doing, employing a similar thing where I would totally pull out a lot of the sounds and a lot of the scenes in the bowling alley. You know, we had this so many, so many layers and it was amazingly sound editing, but I thought, what can we really do here to make it sound so unsettling and it was just kind of leaving the breaths and the footsteps and the, and just the ball rolling down the alley. I’m really, really grateful to Parish for kind of just giving me free reign with that stuff. I don’t know. We would be pre-mixing it and I was like, hold on, let me try something here. I think this is, I’ve got an idea and I would do it and it would be so different to how it was edited and it would be just so sparse. But he really, and he would at times question why, like, he’s like, look, I like it, but why are you doing this as a purpose to doing this? Because a lot of the time with me, I guess my purpose is just making people feel unwell with sound design. But there was a purpose to it, which was, especially with those, with the kind of bowling alley scenes, is having the background chatter of the friends and all these groups of people having fun, how that all fade away, and you just left with the character and their breaths and their feet.
Jason Nicholas
Well, it’ll be a good test when it’s out in theatres to see how unwell the audience is.
Neil Hillman
Maybe theatre owners won’t thank you for that! If we could just go back again to the concept of the narrative and temporal sound areas, in this film, there are two distinct tempos of dialogue, aren’t there? We have the fast-paced Italian speakers and the noticeably slower English language scenes. I found it interesting to observe that as Lanika’s character, Mattia, became more possessed by her mother’s spirit, so too her delivery moved from being slow to fast, and her voice became more authoritative. To what extent did you influence that in the mixing?
Andrew Dean
Well Parish decided that we would ADR a lot of stuff for delivery. A lot of the changing performance and the heightening of anxieties in the film was Parrish’s idea to get actresses back into the ADR booth and re-record a lot of stuff delivered slightly differently, but in a way that it kind of, that it was kind of always altering and always shaping along the road of the film. What we found extremely helpful was setting time aside and recording a lot of breaths and size with all of our talent. And kind of developing little sound banks for each character to punctuate in the mix, to punctuate scenes, found that extremely useful tool.
Neil Hillman
There is this school of thought, of course, with ADR that you’re losing the artistic truth by replacing that dialogue. But here, you’re actually using it to work the narrative in a different way, aren’t you? I quite like to do, for instance, what I describe as a ‘breath pass’. I find that really useful as a dialogue editor. How did the actors feel about coming back and their performances being slightly modified?
Andrew Dean
Everyone was so welcoming of it. It may be slightly apprehensive at first until they kind of were seeing it kind of placed back into the mix and what just the punctuation and the way it can add a little gravity to every sentence.
Neil Hillman
I’ve worked on films where ADR has really made a huge difference, and the artist has embraced it. I’ve equally worked under protest, or rather where the artist is working under protest because they feel that their work on set has been compromised. So it’s a very delicate position to be in, isn’t it, when you’re in an ADR session? And I often think that as the ADR recordist, you are at the busiest that you’re ever likely to be in post-production because you never want the director waiting for you, you never want the artist waiting for you. Meanwhile, you’re trying to comp a few takes together in case the director asks. How was it for you? Was that a challenge?
Andrew Dean
It was a challenge. I’ve never been really super confident with recording ADR, but I welcome the challenge. I learned a lot in this process. I still haven’t learned to organize my Pro Tools session any better.
Jason Nicholas
Well, the organization of Pro Tools may maybe beyond what we can hope for in this life.
Andrew Dean
Okay, good. Okay, thank you. If you say it, okay, if you say it to me, then I’m fine with it.
Neil Hillman
It’s housekeeping. It’s so important in an ADR session, keeping track of everything! Andrew, thank you so much for being our guest today. It’s been wonderful to talk with you about these completed projects. So, what’s next in the pipeline?
Andrew Dean
Thank you so much. It’s an honour to be on this podcast and speak to you both. It’s been so much fun. Next up for me, I’m currently just about to start post sound on two short films. A film called January by Shin Ocean and a film called Echo Point by Adam Daniel, which is a seven minute, seven or eight-minute ghost story set in the Blue Mountains, which I’m very keen to sink my teeth into.
Neil Hillman
Well, that sounds great, and hopefully you can come back and tell us about those projects, too. Salt Along the Tongue, written and produced by Parish Malfitano, is released later this year, so keep your eyes open for screenings taking place near you. The viewing link for Mud Crab and Andrew Dean’s contact details are in the notes for today’s show, along with Jason and my contact details as enthusiastic and experienced work-for-hire dialogue editors; my work as a sound producer overseeing films from pre-production right through to post-production; as well as the live, online coaching sessions we run that we like to think are relevant and useful for all craft creatives, not just sound professionals.
Jason Nicholas
It’s our goal with our podcasts to educate listeners from all backgrounds about the under-appreciated, wider role sound plays in life, as well as in the film and television industry; and to also develop a sound language and style of dialogue that film makers can use to more easily communicate with each other about sound for moving pictures.
If you like what you heard today, please be sure to subscribe to the podcast and leave comments about what would be helpful to you in your work, and who you’d like to hear from on the show. And lastly… Thanks for listening.
Announcer Rosie
The Apple and Biscuit show is written, produced and presented by Jason Nicholas and Dr. Neil Hillman. It is edited and mixed by Jason Nicholas in our Sydney studio.
